Transcript

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Hey everyone, welcome to another edition of Bootstrap MD, the podcast for physician and healthcare entrepreneurs and investors. My name is Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. And many of you out there are practice owners. You know this kind of weird thing that we have about finances. We spend all this time trying to master medicine, we're building up a practice, but then when it comes time to investing, it usually ends up like, "Hey, here's a 401k brochure." It basically says, "Good luck." And most of us have our entire net worth either in two places. One is our practice, and then often times it's a retirement account that we don't really get control. Now, on the podcast, we talked a lot about different types of investing. We discussed real estate, syndication, options trading on here. But today we're going to be going after something a little bit different today, and it's called algorithmic trading. And my guest on the call, we are happy to have him here, is the founder of NURP. His name is Jeff Sekinger, and he has a really interesting story. He's built three companies in finance. One is called 0% on the education and funding side. Orca Capital, which runs a digital asset hedge fund for accredited investors. And now NURP, where he takes that same caliber of strategy and puts it directly in the hands of individuals.

Now, before we get started off, I just want to give you a quick disclosure before we start. This is a sponsored episode. NURP is a partner of the show, and I generally think what they're doing is worth a real look, and that's exactly why we wanted to have Jeff on. But NURP is a software and financial education company. It's not your financial advisor. I'm not your financial advisor. And nothing in this conversation is financial advice. As I always say, treat it as the start of your homework, not the end of it. Any product that touches your capital deserves your own due diligence. And trading carries real risk, including the risk of loss. Now we got that, we're good. All right. So, I want to welcome to the program Jeff Sekinger. Welcome to Bootstrap MD, Jeff.

Yeah, thanks so much, Mike. I'm excited to be here.

All right. We're all busy. You decided, I want to build three companies in finance, right? So, we got 0%, which is doing the financial educating and funding, Orca Capital, which runs a digital asset hedge fund, and now NURP. And I think the biggest question that I have, what is NURP? Where did that come from? I read something it was a name of a house or something like that. I got to know the backstory.

Exactly. Yeah, so the funny thing is, I know you're from San Diego. My origination of the company's name came from San Diego. Really? don't know if it's Point Loma, but there is a house on Point Loma that's very purple, and it's a very unique house that sticks out of every every house in the block. It's like the most unique thing that you've seen. And then, when I first started my entrepreneurship career, I got out of JP Morgan, and I started my first company, which was 0%. And when I moved out to San Diego, that's when I had my first quantum leap was in that house, in my finances, in my happiness, in my health, my relationships, everything got better. So, that that house was actually named NURP. So, that's how it got the name that house represents multiple things for me. Number one, it's very unique, like even the doors inside the house have a triangular shape. There's lights in the ceilings. There's like cutouts in the ceilings. There's this big rooftop that overlooks the bay. It's a very unique place to live. Definitely the most unique place I've ever lived before. And that represents a little bit of the contrarian nature of needing to be different than everyone else in order to be successful in trading and investing. The reason is because when you invest and you trade, you are in playing a zero-sum game, meaning someone else has to lose for you to win. That's just how the secondary market works. So, anytime you're trading on an exchange, or you're investing, someone else is taking a loss if you're taking a win and vice versa. And that's just how the market works. There's two things that that word represents. Number one, the contrarian aspect and that different type of mindset you need to have to be successful. And then number two, the quantum leap exponential growth that you can have when you start deploying the correct strategies in your overall portfolio. And then I'd say the last thing too just about branding. I've looked at some of the most successful companies. If you look at Apple and Nike and Google, right? Those words are very short. So you want short words for your brand name. You don't want a bunch of syllables. You want the two to maybe one, two, three syllables at most. And then you also want something that sticks out because you want something if you're on a podcast and you say a a name of a brand and it's a very unique name, people are like, "Oh, wait, what is that? What does that mean? I need to go do some research." And then they remember it. So all those things together is how we arrived at the name of the company.

Yeah, that's that's that's true. I I I love you gave us a marketing lesson. I guess you could call that algorithmic trading partners 101.com 101.com. Exactly. Nobody's going to remember that. forget the name. Yeah. So if you got Orca Capital, which is kind of like the institutional version. It's a long short digital asset fund. You're doing accredited investors, the whole structure. And then NURP is almost the opposite. The same caliber of strategy, but it's licensed directly to individuals. So why split it that way?

Yeah, so the main thing that I noticed is there's a big difference between what some higher net worth retail investor can get. Let's say they're worth a couple hundred thousand, maybe they're just approaching million bucks, sometimes even below 5 million. We have some funds that that under the Orca Capital umbrella that you have to be worth 5 million dollars to even get in. And that's just a regulatory law. So, there's there's I saw the big hole in the market where the person between, let's say, 200,000 to 5 million, they can't quite get certain types of deals and certain types of investments because they're not yet at that level. Now, we do have some clients in NURP that are well above that into the multiple nine-figure level, but what's important is the differences Orca Capital, we manage capital on behalf of limited partners, which are investors. On the NURP side, you retain control of your own funds. So, you're just licensing a technology into a brokerage account. So, there are some really wealthy people, they just don't like to give up control of their funds by putting it into another hedge fund or another vehicle or just sending money to other people. They just They're just not very excited on doing that. They like to be in more control and have a liquidity. And that is a key piece with NURP, since you're licensing a software, you can decide when to deposit and withdraw at any given time.

Okay. Makes makes sense. As a physician, I've done a lot of stressful and anxious things in my life. I've delivered babies where the circumstances were really stressful. I've been involved in medical codes, taken a lot of tests, but I think the one of the most stressful things that I've done in my life was when I decided to become a day trader for a week during COVID. So, recently, I've heard a lot about algorithmic trading. Can you basically describe how that works and how it's different from what most of us as retail investors might maybe exposed to?

Yeah, so let me ask you a question. When you were day trading, what Did you have some type of a strategy or a setup on that told you that you should enter or exit? Did you have any idea what you were doing when you were trading?

I could say I did, but out into the public, but I I a friend who he had a course and I got his course and he set up these parameters and I set up my my trading software and everything like that. And then he would send me these text messages to buy and then sell. And then I'd have to go to the bathroom and then I missed it. And then it's too late. I I I think this that this story might be a little familiar for those out there who's done this. So yes, I was given some type of strategy. Did I understand it? No. And then I said, "This isn't for me." But Yeah. that was my experiences.

Yeah, so that's actually how we stumbled upon building these trading systems in the software. Those things are called a signal group, right? You've got someone that has some type of strategy apparently. Who knows if it's actually profitable or not, but they will send you a notification that says, "Hey, buy this asset and then I'm going to sell it here. If you want to do it, it's for educational purposes only, but here's the signal, right? If you want to take it." The issue is exactly what you just said. Number one, you don't really understand the strategy, so you probably don't have conviction in that. Number two, if you're busy, you're going to the bathroom, you're on vacation, you're with friends and family, you're at your job, you can't execute that strategy. It's nearly impossible. And then thirdly, when you don't have conviction of the strategy, you don't understand it, you also get emotional. Right? You see the numbers going against you and you're like, "Oh my gosh, I don't want this to hit the full stop loss. Let me just get out early." And that trade may have may have actually been a winner. And then the last piece is what I was saying at the beginning is you know, you don't really know if it's a profitable strategy. So we take a strategy and code it into software and then we buy the data for the certain assets that we're trading and we take that software and we back test it across 10 plus years of financial data of that asset so that we know when if the strategy actually has positive expectancy, which means that it is profitable. And then number two, we know when in certain types of markets it is more profitable than others. And we know that it works on specific assets. So, the problem with like buying a course or a signal or learning from YouTube, they say, "Oh, look for this pattern, right? It's a head and shoulders pattern. You need to enter short when it breaks the bottom of the shoulder." Not only do you have to be staring at a chart all day to do that, but firstly, they don't even tell you which assets that setup is actually profitable on, cuz those people have never tested that strategy across that asset over the past at least 1 2 5 10 years. So, often times you start trading a strategy, and it's not even a profitable strategy. Even if you executed it correctly, you don't even know that it is a positive expectancy based system. And that's what algorithmic trading solves. It solves the time that it takes for you to enter and exit. If you're busy or something, that software is entering based on predefined rules. So, even if you're in the bathroom, you're on vacation, you're asleep at night, that will still be scanning the market and waiting for a specific setup, and it's not entering based on emotion. It's entering based on logic. That is the major difference between someone that's just trying to day trade and someone that's using a software. The software is executing at any time. It's getting rid of those emotions. And at least historically, through the testing, the live testing, which is called forward testing, and the back testing, which is that you buy the data and you test it back over many years, you know that at least it's been profitable over those periods of time. So, you have a much more higher likelihood of being profitable because I actually just spoke about this last night to about 100 people, but retail traders, when they trade over multiple years, only 96 to 99% of them end up losing money. So, it's a very difficult thing to do on your own. It takes a very long time to start making money from day trading. It looks really easy. It sounds really fun. But when you start doing it, it's quite difficult. So, the algorithm helps you or just have more success quicker.

Yeah, I I and I can attest to that. The emotions on there and realizing that one trip to the bathroom might cost you thousands of dollars on here, right? It Yeah. And and it is emotion plays a lot to it even though maybe some traders don't want to admit that.

So, in my notes here, it says that you actually had the idea for NURP at a young age and started this at 16. Tell me about this.

No, I would I've actually been investing since I was a even before that. I believe The funny thing is I got into finance because I have two older sisters. Okay, so my dad's not in finance. He used in the energy business. And it was really smart for him. Anyone listening this, if you have kids, this might be a great idea. Is he would say, "Hey, I'm going to give you and your sisters a thousand dollars into an account that I control. And I want you individually to pick the company, a stock that you like of a company that you enjoy and you think is going to do well. And whoever has the highest growth in that account over the next year, two years, three years wins $50." And $50 is a lot of money when you're a little kid, especially when that was 20 years ago, 15 years ago. So, that got me at a very young age. I believe I was probably 12 or 13, maybe even younger than that. And that got me thinking about finance very early on. And then I spoke to wealthy people. They consistently said, "You know what, Jeff? You want to be wealthy later in life, you should probably find a job that gets you close to the money." So, I just knew I was very interested in investing, very interested in just pursuing my entire career in something in investing. So, I worked for the largest bank in the South of the United States in asset management. I thought I was going to go into the private bank and be an advisor the rest of my life. And then I got there and I realized that I just wasn't excited to to pursue that career the rest of my life. So, then yeah, we launched I launched the funding company right out of college and my hedge fund not too long after that. So, I've had the hedge fund since 2019 and it's NURP about four four and a half years old now.

Yeah, that that's awesome. Great advice. On on our audience here, we've got a lot of most are physicians if not all. Most have medical practices or they own their own medical practice. And a lot of them have their entire net worth either tied up in their practice or maybe they've got they've opened up a 401k. I know you've worked with a lot of physicians, a lot of high net worth investors. What's the common financial blind spot that that you see? Maybe especially with physicians.

Yeah, I think there's a few different risks that people don't really think about is number one concentration risk. So, if you have all of your money in your practice or you have all of your money into one investment, that can become a pretty big risk for you because what happens if something happens to that one investment? So, generally it's not a good idea to be extremely concentrated with your wealth. There are some exceptions where people made it and they did extremely well because they went all in on their business like Elon Musk for example like the first few companies that he started and they ended up being successful. But, there's also probably a thousand people that did not work for. So, you only hear like the guy that became the trillionaire, he did it, right? But, there's also probably many other people that had too much concentration risk and at some point it cost them a lot of money. And then the other thing is just diversification. Diversification is really the solution to the concentration risk. The reason why like what I do is all around alternative investments. So, nothing I do is traditional. All right, we're not I'm not a stock broker. I'm not a financial advisor saying go buy the index funds and the bonds and maybe you buy a little bit of gold and you got 10% into real estate, right? Those are traditional base investments, although you could maybe put real estate as an alternative and gold a little bit as an alternative as well. For the most part, it's what financials advi- advisors speak about. When I was learning about finance and I was at the corporate bank, I did research on who are the most successful people in finance. And you know what I found is most people don't know. Have you ever heard of this guy named Jim Simons? No. Okay, have you heard of a guy named Warren Buffett? Yes, of course. Okay, of course, right? Everyone's heard of Warren Buffett because he's had he's done 20% a year for an extended period of time. I think that's like his average over a long period of time. And people think that he is the most successful investor and really money manager of all time, but the funny thing is he's not the most successful. The most successful is a guy named Jim Simons and they average 66% a year for 30 years through a fund called the Medallion Fund. There's a whole book written on it. If you go look it up, it's called The Man Who Solved the Market. And what did that guy do? He used technology and quantitative trading systems, which are algorithmic trading systems where they built successful strategies into a computer software and they ran those softwares and that entered, exited, and managed all of their trading activity. And we're seeing this across the board, too. Another proprietary trading firm named Jane Street is making $5 billion a month right now. They make about 3.4 billion in profit a month and they're actually the most successful company in the history of the world when you look at companies with employees over 1,000 employees in that firm. So, they're the most profitable per employee out of any company that has ever existed when you look at companies that have over a thousand employees. So, I'm looking at it and I'm saying, "You know what? How Okay, this firm became the most successful hedge fund of all time pretty much by far. I think the next one closest one that had that long of a track record was maybe at 40%. So, they average 66% a year. And then we've got the most successful company of all time also doing what they're doing, just deploying a bunch of different types of trading strategies. When I look at trying to do something myself, I want to look at who are the most successful people in the world at doing those things, and I want to do my best to try to mimic what they're doing. So, that's what we wanted to do is give the power back to the individual to use that as an alternative way to place some of their money. I'm not saying, "Go mortgage your house and put all of your money into this, right?" You should have an investment portfolio, your business, maybe you've got some index funds, maybe you've got a little bit of real estate, but then it's good to have also a an alternative piece of your portfolio that gives you asymmetric upside. So, you're risking a small amount of your portfolio, but it could dramatically outperform everything else, and it's uncorrelated to everything else that you invest in, and it actually increases the overall expected return of the portfolio. So, that's just called modern portfolio theory. You can just go look that up, MPT, if you type that in on Google, you'll learn about modern portfolio theory and how important it is to have assets that are uncorrelated. And then again, you have a few venture capital is a piece of that, right? Venture capital is an alternative investment. It has asymmetric upside. If you look at the best investors of all time, they allocate a bigger piece of their portfolio to safer investments that have worked for an extended amount of time, 100-plus years, real estate, stocks, those types of things. And then they do branch off and take two, five, 10% of their portfolio and they put that into those alternative investments that give them that asymmetric upside. So that's really how our product would fit in into a traditional portfolio.

Yeah, in fact, I just had that conversation with one of our doctor clients just a few days ago. He's asking me how where should I allocate my funds? And I said, you know about the traditional investing and we're not saying to go away from that, but if there is money that you can afford to lose, and I think that's the key in there, why not designate it five I said 10% of it to that and because of the potential Exactly. If it's something that you're struggling with and you know it's between your mortgage pay your mortgage, do that, right? But if it's something that you can afford to lose, why not Exactly. way to go.

So, on your website, you there is one of our members, your members Bill Moore, and actually we have a website that you go to if you want to get started on it. It's start.nurp.com/doctors. You can read it about his story. And he's actually a medical practice entrepreneur, similar to myself, he owns a number of men's spas in Texas and he's been very probably bad experience. So what is it about Bill's actual journey with the platform that I think could resonate with a lot of members of our audience?

Yeah, I think it's just that he had a a fair amount of his wealth that was built through his business and he accumulated a lot of wealth over over time from all the hard work that he put in to the to his companies. And he's got some traditional investments and things from what he's told us. And what he really liked about working with us is number one, he's in control of it because ultimately you're using the software, you can understand how it trades. That's what we teach. We teach people exactly how the thing operates and trades and you can watch all the trades live in your account. But again, it's the liquidity aspect of it. He had quite a lot of money from his businesses and he was still just felt a lot more comfortable allocating a portion of his portfolio into something that he could see operating in front of him. I'm telling you on a second by second basis, you can see what the account is doing, what the algorithm is doing, how the growth of the account is doing over time. All those analytics are right in our dashboard. You can connect to a third-party software as well and see all that live right on your phone, right on your computer. So, I think the liquidity aspect was a big deal. Also, obviously the returns, getting a higher return than what you're getting from traditional investments always is attractive to people. So, I think those were the main things. Just getting branching out a little bit, getting using a piece of his portfolio to get a more attractive return and also feeling like he's in control and has that liquidity that he needs at any given moment because he could just deposit on a Monday and withdraw on a Wednesday if he wanted to.

So, let's talk about NURP and on on the site, again, you can go to start.nurp.com/doctors, you can read all about what they're trading specifically. And I think this is a recent thing that came out. You have this might Midas trading, which is gold. And I'm sure most of you know that when things get uneasy, like probably around these times, right? Gold gold tends to go up. Not all the time on there. It It's had a strong run of late, you can say, on there. Also, it can be very volatile. People have different experiences. So, tell us about the Midas algorithm that you've developed.

Yeah, the great thing about algorithmic trading, and this is what got Jim Simons really famous from the Medallion Fund, is when you're trading, you are working on extracting money out of the market. So, you're betting on prices going up and down in in a market. So, you have the ability to to money even if the markets are going sideways, they're going up, or they're going down. So, our software trades gold. Gold is a very liquid asset. It's a $30 billion asset. And just from February of 2025 until May of 2026, gold has done 51%. And this is again from February of 2025 until May of 2026. And Midas, we started live trading. The reason why I gave you those dates is because February of 2025 is the first time we started live trading the Midas strategy. And sent from February of 2025 to May of 2026, Midas did 517%. So, it had a 10 times outperformance than what gold did because it is betting both on the long side. So, when gold's going up, it's playing on the long side. It's betting on prices going up. It's using the momentum to its advantage. And then when gold's coming down, it also shorts and bets on gold going down. It can make money when gold is actually losing money. And that is the power of Warren Buffett's talked about a consistent compounding. Is if you can find a way to consistently grow without having big losses that sit as losses for sometimes years, you can have exponential growth over time because of the power of compound interest. So, yeah, that's just one. And by the way, over that period of time, gold had a drawdown of almost 27%. So, from the very peak to where it came down by almost 27% and Midas maximum drawdown was actually a bit less than that at 26%. It's not only outperformed on the upside, but also on the negative metrics that you would look at. It's also outperformed on the downside.

Yeah, makes sense. I do want to address the elephant in the room. A doctor maybe listening to this talk and say, "Oh, this is about algorithm trading. It seems like there's a lot of hype out there. Not so sure." I don't want I'm going There's going to be people who listen to you who understands this that you have to be educated on this, but I do think there might be some credibility issues with algorithmic trading. So, what is the right framework for a physician who may be on the skeptical side to actually do due diligence with a company such as yours?

Yeah, I think the biggest thing is number one making sure that the brand has real people behind it. So, we have a real product team with true quants that we pay very well. We've got 40 full-time employees. Been in business for 4 plus years. A lot of companies pop up. They don't show who's behind the company. They've only been around for 6 months or a year, and who knows if they're going to make it past a couple of years cuz it's not an an easy industry to be in whatsoever. It's a difficult thing to do to design a system that that trades in a way that's sustainable long-term. So, I'd say that's the first thing is finding out who's behind it. Do they actually have a finance background? Do they come from the investment world? Have they been in investing for an extended amount of time? And then secondarily, if they're talking about performance or something, the numbers that I just spoke about are all public, by the way. So, we share our performance metrics through a third party. When we actually give this third party our account number and something called an investor password, that gives that third party all every single transaction that's ever occurred in the brokerage account. So, that third party pulls all of the transactions from our brokerage account, and then shows the metrics of how that account has performed since inception, since the first deposit, and it shows any deposits, withdrawals, the growth, every single trade, all of the history of the account is fully transparent online. You could go audit all of the trades of that account since inception, and that's the exact strategy that our clients use. And you know, we took it another an extra layer because maybe one third party isn't enough. We then sent our brokerage statements to another third-party and they went through the brokerage statements and said, "Hey, based on all of the trading history and deposits and withdrawals on this account, here is the overall net return." And I sent them the It's called a Myfxbook link, which has the data. That's the first third-party that I mentioned. They have a They probably have a million different accounts that they track online. It's a free site that anyone can go on and see the public information. And that the other third-party, which is Alpha Performance Verification Services, they said in their statement to us, which we give the PDF out to people that are considering working with us, that this Here's the performance based on the brokerage statements. And by the way, those the performance that we audit essentially verified through the brokerage statements, they match up with what the Myfxbook, the other third-party, is saying that account did. So, there's two different third-parties verifying the same data. And I think that's really important because some people can show an amazing track record, but you don't know necessarily for sure if that's a that's a demo account. That's a paper-traded account. If they somehow made up those numbers. And I think that's really important. There's got to be multiple layers of verification so that you know that the data that they are speaking about is real.

And let's talk about when we invest were and safety for your members. How do we make sure that the math is real and the members' money stays safe? How do How do you guys make sure that it's in their own brokerage account?

Yeah, so that's the great thing about what we do is our software is agnostic to many different brokers. So, my desk can trade on US futures brokers. It can also trade on FX space brokers, which there's hundreds of them out there. The contract that they trade is XAUUSD or they'll trade a micro gold futures, which most US futures brokers have that contract. It's a very popular asset to trade. So, that And then, onto the safety aspect, each individual trade that the software enters has its own predefined stop loss and take profit. So, it's not putting in a bunch of trades, and if the market goes against it, it's got to keep putting in more trades, and if eventually it it doesn't come out profitable, but hits a 50% loss or something like that. Really, the worst-case scenario that that could happen with the software is that it loses an edge over time, so you see a step down in the account value over time, and you can pull your money out at any given time, but we also allow the user to put their own stop loss in place. So, inside of our portal, they can set their own max loss risk. So, if they said, "You know what? I'm going to put $50,000 in. I don't want to lose more than 15%." They could set their equity monitor to 15%. So, if they ever if the account ever comes down by 15%, it closes all the trades, turns off the algorithm, and sends them an email, and says, "Hey, there's a 50% equity stop loss. We just turned everything off, but you need to go into the portal and to turn it back on." So, until they turn the software back on, that will not trade in their account again. So, they have control over what that max loss ri- that max loss is, but also the software already has stop loss features built into it to to protect the equity.

I'm glad to hear you have those safeguards in place. So, this has been very illuminating. Love I think we've got a great education here, Jeff. For someone who wants to This sounds interesting, but you're not ready to invest, which I would recommend that's would be the best way to do it is you need to be able to try it out. We've got a special link for those who want to actually demo the software, and it's at start.nurp.com/doctors. Tell us about how this market how this is how does this work?

Yeah, this so this is the great thing. This is another way that you can verify that it works with really not risking much but maybe 5 minutes of your time. And this is what we're going to do for you doctors as well as we'll give you an account for 90 days so you can use the Midas strategy in a paper traded account. So it's called a demo account. The broker will put usually like a $100,000 into the account. It's fake money but it's to show the real life execution of what the software would be doing in the account. So that's a way for you to see the software working without risking your own capital and you're paying us $0 to do that as well by the way. So we're not asking for money up front. We want to prove to you that the software works. So I'm excited to give you that account. I think by tomorrow morning we'll have it set up for you. And we'll send you the login information so that you can log in and watch that account over the next 90 days. And then again and anyone listening to this podcast too if you want to take advantage of that I believe there's like a link below in the description that you could click and then just like you mentioned the start.nurp.com/doctors you can go to and be able to go through that trial the same way and you'll be using the same system that I'm talking about the Midas system and you'll see it trading gold over the next 90 days and you can see if it's right for you or not.

I love it and I had that same mindset when I started my own trading journey. I didn't trade with my own money. I needed to understand it and it's kind of same thing that everybody does. So thank you for that opportunity to getting access to it. So the website go to start.nurp.com/doctors you can find all about it what they do set up for a mock account see how it works for yourself. Again this is about education. This is about ex- testing it for yourself. You never want you want to invest in things that you understand and if you don't understand it, that's the that's the fastest way to start losing money. Jeff, this has been again, I really thank you for taking your time at your busy schedule cuz you're running these three companies. This is crazy. But any last minute thoughts before we end the call today?

No, I just really enjoyed being on here and it's great to hear that you've already talked about diversification and investments with other people. I think that's one of the most empowering things that you can do. So, it's great that that you've educated your audience and I've had a great time here tonight. So, thank you so much for being on here.

And thank you. Thank everybody for listening. Again, I I Again, this is a sponsored episode. Just want to give you the same disclosure. None of it is financial advice. But if something here caught your attention, then he Jeff doesn't say to wire him money and or start it. Test it first, right? Test it first. See how it works. Make sure that you understand it. Him and his team will help answer any of your questions. Go to start.nurp.com/doctors. That's start.nurp.com/doctors. See exactly how it works. Decide if it's right for you. And again, Jeff, thank you again for taking the time and I look forward to finding out how this all works and excited to dive in.

Yeah, me too. Thank you, Mike. All right. Thank you, everybody. Again, guys, you can have your ups and downs as physician entrepreneurs. Do something little each day to get you closer to your goals and keep moving forward.